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Post by Otaku on Oct 22, 2008 9:13:33 GMT 8
Is it 'tenpura' or 'tempura'? This particle sound in the Japanese language mistifies me. When I watch a Japanese person say the sound, their lips touch on this sound, which to me would signify an 'M' sound.
In romaji, ‚ñ is written as the letter N. This is where the problem lies. The Japanese doesn't distinguish between an M or N sound.
I know the English language has Japanese loan words: futon, tempura, wasabi, etc. When these words are being used outside Japan, I could care less if the spellings are changed to fit into the 'sound rules' of that language, much like how katakana sounds are applied to words coming into Japan's borders.
However, my mind is still trying to get around how brutally this one sound is slaughtered inside Japan. For a country that seems to be stuck on doing everything the 'Japanese way', I can't understand why an M romaji letter would be tolerated. Let's take for example tourist maps, informational guides, etc, these are written in English for foreigners. But, when these types of things are being distributed inside the country, I think the romaji ‚ñ SHOULD ALWAYS BE WRITTEN AS THE LETTER N. Otherwise, you get mass confusion.
For example, the tourism company in Osaka decided they would make an English version of the Osaka subway map. There are two points in particular that are very clear when written in Japanese but are confusing as hell when it is written in romaji, especially when the foreigner knows a little about the Japanese language.
1. The ‚¹‚ñ‚É‚¿‚Ü‚¦ Line. 2. The ‚È‚ñ‚Î stop.
1. The Sennichimae Line. 2. The Namba stop.
I spent 10 minutes with a Japanese teacher and a JTE this morning trying to have them explain to me why in Japanese both place names have the letter ‚ñ but in romaji one of the spellings change to the letter M, especially since romaji DOESN'T have an M all by itself in romaji. He was saying that a long time ago, in the Japanese langauge, this sound distinction would have been made but in modern Japanese, the reader is supposed to automatically know this slight nuance when reading both of these words.
I never thought my head could swirl around two simple letters but to make the headache stop, I say inside Japan, when writing romaji, choose one of the romaji alphabets and follow the rules. If you wanna distinguish the M & N in other countries, that's fine but inside of Japan pick a romaji alphabet and follow its rules of writing!
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Post by rollypop on Oct 22, 2008 12:41:43 GMT 8
It`s a bit like the 一本、二本 thing - the sound changes because of the context. It`s just not acknowledged in the kana...
How did you write this:
The characters show up as gibberish on my (Japanese) school computer. Another wtf indeed.
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Post by gsuiris on Oct 22, 2008 12:53:28 GMT 8
I thought it was a left-over from the old way. I remember being told that it should be "m" if it comes before a b, m or p. Hence, tempura. However that rule changed or something because people write Gunma not Gumma now.
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Post by Otaku on Oct 22, 2008 13:01:29 GMT 8
Rolly, I just typed in the hiragana...that's all. If things are showing up as gibberish, you may try right-mouse clicking on the screen and changing the ƒC[ƒ“ƒRƒh over to Japanese.
Gsuiris, I like 'Gumma' better...sounds like a character in Super Mario Bros!
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Post by gumby on Oct 22, 2008 13:26:12 GMT 8
Gsuiris, The rules haven't changed. However the Dept of Transportation has a different rule (who knows why) They don't use the "m" That's why you have Gunma and Nihonbashi etc.
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Post by rollypop on Oct 22, 2008 13:26:15 GMT 8
Fixed. I had to change the text encoding of my web browser, under the view menu. Fun fact: When not using the Shift_JIS encoding, the "‚ñ" shows up as ñ...
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Post by Otaku on Oct 22, 2008 13:43:14 GMT 8
Fun fact: When not using the Shift_JIS encoding, the "‚ñ" shows up as ñ... Hella yeah! I was speaking Spanish! I don't even know Spanish!
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Post by junkdna on Oct 23, 2008 11:31:28 GMT 8
Actually it's very easy. I learned this as an exchange student. The general rule is, if the N is followed by a B or P such as in tampopo or tambo (within the same word), then it changes to M. If not, don't touch it. Gunma is correct. Gumma is not. The secondary rule is, listen to the natives of the area you are in.
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Post by MES Mark on Nov 10, 2008 22:52:54 GMT 8
It's a nasal /n/ assimilating to the following (bilabial /p/ and /b/) consonant. It's quite common with languages.
Just as grammar is an explanation of what is said, not a rule that governs language use, so is spelling an attempt to capture the spoken word. It doesn't work so well all the time.
cooked - /t/ cleaned - /d/ branded - /id/
while that above only works in your favor (same spelling different readings,) imagine those words scripted in another language. Why should they preserve the first spelling and force everyone to memorize the difference? cards - /z/ --> カードズ (ka-dozu) (voiced consonant transfering voicing to the voiceless /s/ making it /z/) cats - /s/ --> カートス (ka-tosu)
Not the best examples, but here you can see that if there was a need to conform these words to Japanese (in the plural form for that matter,) it would be better to choose 'zu' for "cards" and 'su' for "cats". It wouldn't make a lot of sense to choose a kana for 's' and use it all of the time to match the English spelling.
Japanese doesn't have the flexibility of English. There is no /m/ only kana. While in English we can pronounce *inpossible, that's not what we say. Same goes for Japanese. It's possible to say *tanpopo, but that's not what they say. They say 'tampopo'.
Japanese certainly distinguishes between /n/ and /m/. You can find many minimal pairs working with your ma and na gyou. Here's just one. man - gloss --> 10,000 nan - gloss - -> what
I'm not sure I get why that bothers you.
(aside: would you have been able to answer why the 's' changes to a /z/ in 'cards'? Same for the variations in the 'ed' endings? If you asked an American, even a language teacher, I'm sure they wouldn't be able to tell you. If you ask the JTE a similar question about Japanese, remember you are asking them about the language they speak, not the language they teach.)
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Post by Otaku on Nov 11, 2008 14:27:15 GMT 8
MES Mark, I don't want to delve too far into the phonetic reasoning why/when sounds change because this thread will get extremely boring. I understand the Japanese distinguish an N and M sound...I saw the distinction when I had the Japanese teacher say various words that contained the ‚ñ-sound.
What my initial post unraveled is apparently there is a romaji rule for this N to M switch, which was brought to light by Gsuiris and Junkdna. I honestly didn't know this rule existed. In all the years of Japanese studying, I've never heard of this romaji rule. Nobody has bothered to explain it to me, which leads me to believe this rule is not mainstream knowledge. If it was mainstream knowledge, I'm sure I would have heard about it before. I don't think I live that far underneath my rock. If it was mainstream knowledge, I would think just like the romaji SI is followed with SHI in paranthesis, you would see the romaji N followed with M in paranthesis, would you not? To further increase my suspicions that this rule isn't in the mainstream, when I have asked Japanese people how many romaji alphabets there are, 99.9% of the responses have said "two," when in actuality there are three.
If this romaji N to M switch is not mainstream knowledge, why is the "N to M" romaji rule being applied to materials distributed in-country? To my knowledge, my students don't know this rule. To my knowledge, the average Japanese person doesn't know this rule. BTW, which teacher at JHS should be responsible for know this rule? The Japanese teacher? The JTE? Who?
I understand this rule is being used on materials that were designed for tourists, but like someone pointed out in a previous post the Department of Transportation doesn't always follow this rule. And, while this new fangled romaji spelling rule I just learned might help a tourist correctly pronounce a Japanese name, I would dare argue EVERY tourist in Japan at one time or another has stopped a Japanese person to ask for directions with their romaji-only map. If this N to M romaji rule is not in the mainstream, chances are the average Japanese person isn't going to be able to read a romaji map designed for tourists. I know the situation sounds a bit far fetched but it COULD happen.
At the point confusion could arise, why not simplify things and do away with the M. There are already too many complicated things about the Japanese language that I don't understand. I don't want have to go back to school to study romaji characters and rules.
Rewinding even farther, let me get this N to M rule straight: in romaji, when an romaji N is followed by a B or P, the N changes to an M? If this is the case, why doesn't N switch to M in Gumby's example of 'Nihonbashi'?
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Post by junkdna on Nov 12, 2008 9:48:51 GMT 8
You also have to take into account regions, dialects, and just the insanity of people in general. I know a gentleman in the area named Sekigawa. And I know there is a river in the area called Sekikawa. Same kanji. WTF!? Some people say Ibaraki Prefecture, I lived with people in the prefecture and they insist it's Ibaragi (so that's what I use). No rule is Pat, for that would just be a Trick.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR! (ahem, sorry... anyway...)
Why is monkeys not monkies? Obviously because of the e, but try and explain that to a non-native and their head would explode after you just spent hours explaining that they MUST change y to ies in plural. (Slightly flawed example to be sure.)
My point? Don't let your head explode over it. =) Just learn what peeps around you are using and go with that.
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Post by Otaku on Nov 12, 2008 11:35:07 GMT 8
So this romaji rule has many exceptions...fair enough. If the English language is filled with exceptions, I guess other languages can have exceptions, also.
The only problem I see with this type of logic is the English language was formed from languages all over the world. Japanese, on the other hand (to my knowledge), ONLY derives from the Chinese. So, to compare English exceptions with Japanese exceptions, not to sound 'clicheish', would be like comparing apples & oranges.
Of my experience in Japan, everything is the same: robotic, systematic and therefore logical...to a certain extent. Now, before I go any further, please note that in order to talk about entire cultures and country-as-a-whole kinds of topics, you need to be able to generalize.
When it comes to the language, all verbs end in ‚Ü‚·. To change a verb through its 5 functions -- negative, polite, dictionary form, ‚Å‚«‚é, 'let's' -- all verbs change the same way. The sounds of the Japanese hiragana alphabet never change. All adjectives end it ‚¢ or ‚È. There is a lot of systematic 'sameness' in the language. This 'sameness' extends beyond the barrier of the language and dribbles over into the culture. It could be because of my American tastebuds and having been a victim to perservatives all my life, but I think all Japanese food tastes the same. Japan is the country of uniforms; everybody dresses the same. I know it's because of the homgenous society but everyone has the same color hair, eyes and speaks the same language. Blah, blah, blah...there are many examples to highlight, that is not the point of this point.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I understand a living language is just like a living being...they keep evolving. However, given that Japan is a homogenous society where the people are trained at an early age that everyone should act/speak the same, I don't think there is a lot of room for exceptions.
Let's go back to your example, Junkdna. I understand it would be hard for a non-native English speaker to get their head around that when the word 'monkey' is pluralized, it does not receive an 'ies'. But why would it be difficult for the non-native English speaker to learn this? I would argue it is because their own native language/culture doesn't have many EXCEPTIONS. For a non-native English speaker learning English whose native language/culture also has many exceptions, I would argue that words like 'monkeys', be it more difficult to learn, would not be a new concept to get their mind around.
However, I would argue that for the average Japanese person, explaining that the plural of MONKEY is MONKEYS and not MONKIES would be harder for them to understand. Why? I would dare say because there are not that many exceptions in the Japanese language/culture when compared to other languages/cultures.
That's my two yen...
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Post by junkdna on Nov 12, 2008 15:01:37 GMT 8
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Post by grumpyoldbastard on Nov 13, 2008 15:24:09 GMT 8
my mind is still trying to get around how brutally this one sound is slaughtered inside Japan
It's their fu**ing sound, leave them alone.
I don't want to delve too far into the phonetic reasoning why/when sounds change because this thread will get extremely boring.
You said your head was "swirling in confusion about [these] two letters," Mark tried to give you a logical explanation, and you called him "boring." Don't you think maybe this unwillingness to think about things this way is WHY you were confused?
When it comes to the language, all verbs end in ‚Ü‚·. To change a verb through its 5 functions -- negative, polite, dictionary form, ‚Å‚«‚é, 'let's' -- all verbs change the same way. The sounds of the Japanese hiragana alphabet never change. All adjectives end it ‚¢ or ‚È. There is a lot of systematic 'sameness' in the language. This 'sameness' extends beyond the barrier of the language and dribbles over into the culture. It could be because of my American tastebuds and having been a victim to perservatives all my life, but I think all Japanese food tastes the same. Japan is the country of uniforms; everybody dresses the same. I know it's because of the homgenous society but everyone has the same color hair, eyes and speaks the same language. Blah, blah, blah...there are many examples to highlight, that is not the point of this point.
What are the readings of 問屋, 今日, 香辛料、部屋、etc.? Are they not exceptions? What about the conjugations of 行く、する、来る、いらっしゃる、ござる、おっしゃる、etc?
In Spanish, the dictionary forms of all verbs end in r. It also has very regular spelling, with a generally 1-1 letter to sound correspondence. Does that make Spanish speaking people a bunch of culturally uniform robots?
There are already too many complicated things about the Japanese language that I don't understand. Of my experience in Japan, everything is the same: robotic, systematic... And I requote: I think all Japanese food tastes the same.
Why are you still in Japan?
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Post by Otaku on Dec 8, 2008 11:01:21 GMT 8
An earlier poster already posted in regards to this rule but I thought I would post also because of a little sentence I found tucked away in the textbook.
On the bottom of page 119 in the first grade New Horizon teacher edition's English textbook, there is a little sentence written in blue. It reads, "The syllabic 'n' before 'p', 'b' or 'm' as in ten-pura is easier to read if you write it 'm' (tempura)."
DOH! That little blue sentence has evaded me all these years!
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