|
Keigo
Mar 12, 2008 8:26:35 GMT 8
Post by regi2 on Mar 12, 2008 8:26:35 GMT 8
So, after discussing how relevant it is for foreigners to learn polite forms of language, there was a thig on TV this morning about it. The peeps went out and interviewed kids on the street about their knowldege of this weird and wonderful form of repectful language in Japan. This was followed by a test of 6 people in their 20s on the correct way to talk to different levels of people in their community. Only 2 out of the 6 ever got one scenario correct at one time.
There was concern raised about that because kids no longer talk to their teachers or parents using the keigo form that when they have to work in an office and are required to use it, that they are not bale to and thus running the risk of offending the person who controls their work.
Can anyone see any alignment with disrespect in other cultures? Do you think that language is important to developing levels of respect in society and that without the guidelines of respectful language that this results in a deterioration in general attitudes of respect?
I know from teaching back home that kids language is not as closely monitored as it once was, however in some schools there was still a level of respect required. In schools where this negotiation of language was not present, there was a distinct rise in kids who disrespected the teachers and other students in ways other than communication. What I also saw was that the way in which the kids treated their parents was reflected in the way they treated teachers and fellow students. Thoughts?
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 12, 2008 8:44:42 GMT 8
Post by junkdna on Mar 12, 2008 8:44:42 GMT 8
I think it's important to understand there may be situations when polite language are indeed quite advantages: interviews, the reading of papers, lectures, speeches, papers, et al. It comes off as showing intelligence and respect towards the listener/audience.
As for Japan's keigo, I have very mixed feelings on it. The idea of using polite language in modern Japanese society is to create a wiser elders and inexperienced youth relationship. This worked well when the wiser elders were the only source of knowledge. But Japan has fallen behind the times culturally when it comes to technology. The once inexperienced youth now have a rich source of information, and thus feel the wiser elders (who often can't use the technology to the extent youth can) are no longer needed. The information gap that used to exist between the elders and youth closes, and the youth see all the keigo and similar cultural aspects as posturing and lunacy. Youth wants to be met on a level playing field. The wiser elders see this as a usurping of their power. Youth rebels. Elders huff and try to lay down the law... you see where this is going.
This is a really simplified take on it of course, there is a ton going on behind the curtains that we will never pick up on, but I think it's a pretty accurate opinion.
I think the real problem is that neither the youth nor their elders understand how to deal with this situation, so BOTH overreact and you get youth who are rude to the extreme or can't (read don't WANT to) use keigo (our students for example), and the elders who dispair about such things (and put it on TV to try and shame the youth into compliance).
I saw this report this morning as well. It was interesting. My opinion, keigo needs to be toned down, but still used. Speaking to your boss like he's your buddy just doesn't work (unless he is and approves of this). You run the risk of offending/turning off some truly important people if you don't know how to use language.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 12, 2008 9:20:11 GMT 8
Post by Otaku on Mar 12, 2008 9:20:11 GMT 8
I think Junk pretty much hit the nail head on! I would 'exalt' him for that post but it would only anger him... The world is pretty much globally connected these days. 20+ yr olds are the first generation 'computer babies'. The generations before us relied on books and going to the library to gain access to knowledge. It was easy to gain respect if you knew everything at the drop of the hat, but the internet radicaly changed everything. Thanks to the internet and places like Wikipedia, everybody can find out pretty much everything and anything they want all within a touch of a button. Knowledge no longer equals respect. Respect has to be earned in other ways. I've thought for a long time that everybody needs to earn respect. It isn't given just based upon your age. I think elders shouldn't be respected because they are old but because of who they are and how they handle themselves. I think we are living in exciting times where younger generations are shifting away from cultural values that have been embraced for 100s of years and embracing what they think is important. Japan's formal-language society is butting heads with the changing of times. Japan has always and probably will always not be capable of changing really quick because it focuses on past traditions rather than embracing change but the younger generations give me hope. I think formal speaking is very important in any language and even more important in Japanese culture. It can show you have an educational background and a firm grasp of the language. However, just like most things, keigo has pushed to the extreme. Japanese culture hasn't yet realized there is a time and place for everything. This formal-language might have had more of a place in the society when Japan was still an isolationist country but today's Japan finds itself living in the global world, which means shifting and changing how things are done and said, in my opinion... So, only 2 out of 6 people in their 20s pass the street-keigo test? That means that I most likely have for more people I can have REAL conversations with...
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 12, 2008 13:05:51 GMT 8
Post by junkdna on Mar 12, 2008 13:05:51 GMT 8
Smite me for my good posts!
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 13, 2008 8:51:16 GMT 8
Post by raindrop on Mar 13, 2008 8:51:16 GMT 8
It's really too bad we are losing our language. I do agree with what junkdna said, it's a very interesting point. As time goes by with all the communication tools handy, we are no longer using Keigo as often. We can get things done without dealing with polite Japanese. When you are hungry you can go to a 7-11, and buy whatever you want without using a single word. I rarely see people saying 'Arigato' or even 'Domo' when they pay at the cashier. It's not only 'Keigo' we are losing, but because things got so convenient, we just don't need to intarract with people if we choose not to.
I have some high school students that I teach, and they use different kinds words, in different ways. Language changes, that's understandable and I don't have anything against that, but 'Keigo' should stay so that we can show 'respect' to others.
Also, not being able to use Keigo correctly depends on their family environment, I think.
Very interesting to think about.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 13, 2008 14:57:17 GMT 8
Post by Otaku on Mar 13, 2008 14:57:17 GMT 8
Raindrop brings up a great point...why is it that keigo is so important and people don't say thank you for the most mundane of things, like buying food at 7-11? I would think in a culture that values respect, or at least the 'appearance' of respect, that a clerk at the 7-11 or at the grocery store would warrant a quick "Thank you!" I know I always say thank you to them and I come from an 'inpolite culture'.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 14, 2008 8:05:08 GMT 8
Post by junkdna on Mar 14, 2008 8:05:08 GMT 8
i did when i first got here. i did it in the states. i think the problem is that japan doesn't have customer service policies. oh yes, they say 'welcome' and 'come again' but monkeys can say that. REAL customer service is knowing your stock, knowing alternatives to stock you don't have, smiling, EYE CONTACT, general good will toward your customers, FLEXIBLE POLICIES REGARDING CUSTOMER DESIRE (I was recently told at the McDonald's on Rte 8 that I couldn't have my burger 'my way' after having it 'my way' for the last two years I have been here in Joetsu - i nearly flew off the handle), and an eagerness to help your customers.
I think we covered this topic in a different thread. sorry to rehash, but i think it's relavant.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 14, 2008 8:21:31 GMT 8
Post by regi2 on Mar 14, 2008 8:21:31 GMT 8
I was told by a friend (japanese) that it is not required to thank or acknowledge the service of someone in a 7/11 for example, cause it is their job. That same person yelled at a boser operator for not offereing to take the ashtray from the car.
I agree that there is a lack of non-automated response in customer service, and this is maybe a reflection of this attitude. I notice a difference when I say thanks to people at the supa; they kinda look up and smile.
The keigo was also the first form I learned, however realised upon getting here that I would rarely have a chance to use it. Language does change, but the fact that respect has changed? In another post I mentioned the culture and language link. We can see that as keigo deteriorates, so does the need to respect others in positions that perhaps need respect also changes. Its the never-ending debate on development and change versus values.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 14, 2008 8:36:59 GMT 8
Post by Otaku on Mar 14, 2008 8:36:59 GMT 8
I think that's an interesting observation Regi points out and intriguing to think about. Is the Japanese language directly linked to respect? The more I think about it, the more my head spins because I can see both sides. I would love to see some actual research on this.
A lot of Japanese culture is superficial, so is not playing up to a superificial culture by using less keigo disrespectful? My head continues to spin...
|
|
yopparaisaru
Englipedia Fana
I drink copious amounts of fire and piss excellence
Posts: 312
|
Keigo
Mar 14, 2008 9:51:13 GMT 8
Post by yopparaisaru on Mar 14, 2008 9:51:13 GMT 8
Well I for one am waiting for the day Keigo goes the way of the dodo. Or at least is relegated to dusty museum use, where Old people sit and reminisce about how it was better in the old days. Learning Keigo while linguistically interesting, was a total pain in the ass. Lets have a completely different set of verbs that are easily twice as long as regualr verbs, that mean the same thing. And then let's make another set of verbs about the same length as keigo verbs but this time are used only when referring to yourself. And the real kicker is, after practicing and memorizing these verbs, once you get to Japan the most keigo/extra humble forms you'll hear are when you walk into a 7-11 for the ‚¢‚炵‚á‚¢‚Ü‚¹‚¢!!! So I for one am sad to see an entire seperate language dissappear, but happy that I don't have to use those largely archaic super long hard to remember verbs anymore.
But if you read the news article I posted about Schoolboy cafes, there was a small blurb at the bottom about opening up a pre-war Japan cafe, 1920's style Meiji glory days resturaunt, definetly a place for keigo to flourish in a increasingly less formal culture.
As to Regi's point about respect being linked to the japanese language, I would argue in favor of that. From as far back as you look the japanese history and culture revolved around exceedingly strict social classes and how each social class interacted with each other. So it wouldn't be surprising for the japanese language to grow to accomodate said cultural structure. Even written Japanese was more formal. So its easy to see why keigo nowadays is dying out. Once the class the structure was destroyed first after the Meiji Restoration, but not totally dismantled until post WWII keigo and all polite respectful forms of culture and language became less needed. And so as time passed and Japan ever the copiers and borrowers of the world modeled themselves after the modernizing nations of the West who were also breaking down old social rules and regulations in favor of expediency. And the ever advancing feats of technology especially in the realm information technology helped it along.
So at first the changes may have been minimal in the immediate after-effects of the dismantled class system, there was no immediate superior anymore, therefore it became more difficult to know with whom to use such respectful language, since now everyone under the government were more or less equal. Then as technology improved and life, business, and everything else took on a faster pace, long winded words were replaced with shorter abbreviations to help everyone on their way more quickly. And since it was the older generation (the workers in the faster paced world) doing away with the longer respectful forms, its only natural that their children wouldn't use it either.
Then we come to the present day and see keigo almost gone. Yet there is no push to reintroduce the language anywhere. From our own experience in Japanese schools its easy to see that if a student doesn't want to listen, they won't and there's nothing a teacher can do. So even if there are mandatory keigo lessons in school, its completely up to the student to decide whether or not to learn it. If this is the case, than the TV test of 2 out of 6 shows how willing people are to learn keigo... Not that i blame them... But back to point, Aside from the ‚µ‚‚ꂵ‚Ü‚·/‚Ü‚µ‚½ I don't think I've heard one polite word out of a students mouth ever. And even that isn't keigo. But I can't blame the students for their lack of polite language, I mean rude japanese is all but sanctified in a child's life. Every anime/manga/movie/song that is written shown, or heard all use "rude" japanese. Even the ones where characters are supposed to be uptight heroes bent of absolute goodness use words like ‚¨‚Ü‚¦,@‚«‚¢‚³‚Ü, and yakuza-poi language because its cool. How easy would it be to just throw in a few words of keigo here and there in appropriate situations in the popular media. I mean its farily obvious that Japanese kids are bound to the media hand and foot. I mean with the constant re-enactments of of "sonna no kankenei" and the almost fanatic obsession with whatever is the "in" thing at the time. So sneak some keigo in there and watch it fly across Japan as thousands of japanese kids copy their favorite manga character in speech and action.
And even if that character falls out of favor as they all do, the point is that the kids learned the keigo, and even if the knoweldge is burrowed away in their brains for a few years, I bet they'd be able to pull it out when they needed.
Well I seem to have ranted quite a bit there, sorry guys, I guess my finishing sentence is that the its not the decline of respectful language that instigated a decline in general respect, but the other way around. A decline in general respect sparked the decline in respectful language.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 14, 2008 12:20:37 GMT 8
Post by Otaku on Mar 14, 2008 12:20:37 GMT 8
Wow! That was pretty insightful! I will buy the argument that lack of respect instigated a trend to not use so much keigo. Leave it to a 'drunk monkey' to get me thinking. I think keigo would be so much cooler if it was right below the surface of Japanese culture. Meaning, it wasn't crammed down people's throats all the time. I think it would be much more fashionable if people just talked normal to each other and pulled out their keigo when needed, rather than use it all the time in every situation. To me, too much makes me desensitized to the whole polite language because it seems too fake, but used at the right time I could easily see how it could have the James-Bond-smooth effect.
|
|
|
Keigo
Mar 14, 2008 14:01:56 GMT 8
Post by junkdna on Mar 14, 2008 14:01:56 GMT 8
I'll agree with that Otaku, cuz there is nothing more daunting and frustrating than calling a company (say the phone company or ISP) and not understanding a flippin thing they are trying to say to you just because they feel they MUST use keigo to customers. Just dumb. I once asked an ISP rep I was trying to get information from to stop it and speak conversationally to me because I didn't understand her. When the light went on in her head, we had a pleasant conversation and I was able to get the information I needed from them.
|
|
|
Keigo
Apr 17, 2008 10:25:09 GMT 8
Post by grumpyoldbastard on Apr 17, 2008 10:25:09 GMT 8
Junk that's really interesting, I figured that those people were practically hardwired to only use keigo, so much that if you asked them to speak to you in any other register it would confuse the hell out of them.
I have a group of Japanese friends that ages from early 20's into the mid-30's, with one friend approaching 40. It's amazing to listen to how the almost-40 yr old has completely different speech, she casually drops words like いただく and いらっしゃる in ways that the younger people in our group just don't. It might be a question of how her family raised her as opposed to time period, I don't know, but it's really interesting.
Classical Chinese had a notable honorific system which was phased out of use a long, long time ago, without the culture getting any "worse" or "less personable." Japanese could be a different case but my opinion is that culture is just culture, things about a given culture will inevitably change but this is not necessarily detrimental or beneficial.
Keigo is a bitch to try and speak and/or listen to, though.
|
|
|
Keigo
Apr 17, 2008 10:35:49 GMT 8
Post by junkdna on Apr 17, 2008 10:35:49 GMT 8
Well, I just kept saying 'I don't understand, I don't understand.' She finally acquiessed.
|
|