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Post by rollypop on Oct 22, 2008 14:03:54 GMT 8
One of the old-timer ALTs who lived near me "returned to his country" this past August. Right before we did, we talked a bit about his farewell speeches to his schools, and one thing that he did that struck me was tell the kids that he thought the word "外国人" was outdated for this generation, and they needed a new word.
Since he left, I`ve been thinking about that, and more and more I agree. Foreigners are called "outsiders" or "outside country people", to translate rather literally. What are "foreigners" called where *you* come from? What would be a better word for "foreigner"?
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Post by Otaku on Oct 22, 2008 14:21:08 GMT 8
I think 'foreigner' breeds a certain type of 'us' versus 'them' type of mentality. While we might use it back home every once in awhile, we have many other ways to refer to people who weren't born in that country. I would dare say we usually refer to people by their nationality, if we know it: Chinese, American, Canadian, etc.
When you sling "Foreigner this..." "Foreigner that..." it almost sounds kinda racist. However, one could hardly blame Japan saying "foreigner" all the time when the majority of their race is of one nationality.
While I think 'gaijin' and 'gaikokujin' both sound a little racist, I'm just glad it's not a vindictive type of racism but rather just not yet enlightened. However, I do have hope for Japan's future generations. The other day I was waiting at a bus stop and two bad-ass looking high schoolers dressed like thugs came walking up to the bus stop. Amongst the throng of Japanese people, there was me (American) and two German people (who I didn't know). They were speaking in Japanese and the conversation went like this:
Student A: "There are sure a lot of gaijin here." Student B: "You mean, gaikokujin."
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Post by raindrop on Oct 22, 2008 17:18:19 GMT 8
I was taught "ŠO‘lh is more polite than "ŠOlh.
Just like on TV we never hear "ŠOlh@but "ŠO‘lh...
When speaking in English, I just say "people from other countries"... hmm... what about "non-japanese people"?
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Post by hellndie on Oct 22, 2008 18:16:58 GMT 8
To me, "gaikokujin" means "a person not from this country" or "a foreigner" but "gaijin" literally means "outsider." If all foreigners are classified as "gaijin," then how do you classify people who are married to Japanese ppl? If they are married to a Japanese, they are 'inside' the family right? Then that shouldn't make them an "outsider" anymore and therefore "gaijin" is insensitive and inappropriate. Also for those who aren't married to a Japanese and are classified as "gaijin," ..an outsider, it just show that this country doesn't welcome visitors or people who are not Japanese... and that, beats the purpose of "internationalization" which is something this country longed for.
"non-japanese"... this term sort of implies that there are only Japanese and non-Japanese people in this world. This term is OK to use as a first person but not as a 2nd or 3rd person. That is to say, I can say, "I am not Japanese" but it is rude to say, "She is a non-Japanese" or "You're a non-Japanese person"
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Post by gsuiris on Oct 23, 2008 8:38:51 GMT 8
A lot of my friends hate the terms "gaijin" and "gaikokujin." I can see where they are coming from but personally it doesn't bother me as long as the people are using it in a non-racist way. I don't know what a good alternative would be and my friends can't seem to think of anything either. Non-Japanese might work, but it follows the same lumping as gaijin/gaikokujin. I remember reading an editiorial (and then the backlash) about the terms and how some people took offense to it by David Aldwinckle (Arudou Debito). He has links to the articles on his site (or so I think, ‚h didn't click on every one): www.debito.org/?cat=18In any case the change isn't going to be an easy one. I don't think that there is any one term that will please everyone, nor do I think that it will be a fast transition. I do think that when they know our nationality they try to use it when speaking about us. Or at least that is what people around me do (excluding little kids but what do they know). What bothers me more is when Japanese people have a hard time accepting the idea that someone can be American (or British or Australian) without being white. My former boss was like that and we had more than one discussion about it. He still never believed me that a girl with a Chinese last name, who looks Chinese, could be American and speak American English, or even any English, even though she graduated from a rather good university. Even some of my students now can't believe that in America there are people that are Asian (and maybe their parents or grandparents are Japanese or Chinese). I don't know if they can't imagine that people are accepted into other cultures or what but it can be really frustrating.
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Post by junkdna on Oct 23, 2008 9:42:01 GMT 8
I think gsuiruis really hits the nail on the head with her last paragraph.
Moreover, and putting aside the ugly connotations of 'racism', what bothers me personally about "gaijin" and even "gaikokujin" is that both terms lump non-Japanese together without regard to where we are from. Just like the Japanese, all people of all nations have pride in their countries and wish to be known that they are from that country. When Japanese people remember that I am from America, it tends to rub me the wrong way.
I AM SPECIAL! I wish to be special in as far as I am from a different country. Please remember it! is what we wish to convey by saying "I am from xxx". I think this is what REALLY is behind non-Japanese aversion to the word 'gaijin' and even 'gaikokujin'.
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Post by Otaku on Oct 23, 2008 12:05:12 GMT 8
Just playing devil's advocate a little...
What about when I say, "That person is Asian."? The line is drawn between my country and the rest of the world but it does not make any distinction between Korea, China, Japan or Taiwan.
And yes, I separated Taiwan from China on purpose. I'm sure many Taiwanese hate it when people call them Chinese.
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Post by rollypop on Oct 23, 2008 12:57:21 GMT 8
All the ones I`ve met do hate being called Chinese. Lots.
I`ve always thought that calling a person "Asian" was a little bit rude. Like, calling someone "Oriental" is like using "gaijin" and "Asian" is like "gaikokujin". "Asian" and "gaikokujin" are kind of blankety.
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Post by junkdna on Oct 23, 2008 13:57:03 GMT 8
Okay, now we are splitting hairs I think. Asian is an ethnicity, just as Caucasian, Hispanic, Arabic and Jewish are. And I'm going to invoke Wikipedia: "Ethnicity and race are related concepts in that both are usually defined in terms of shared genealogy. Often, ethnicity also connotes shared cultural, linguistic, behavioural or religious traits. For example, to call oneself Jewish or Arab one immediately invokes a clutch of linguistic, religious, cultural and racial features that are held to be common within each ethnic category. Such broad ethnic categories have also been termed macroethnicity to distinguish them from smaller more subjective ethnic features, often termed microethnicity"I am Cauasian, but that doesn't state whether I'm from the US, Europe, Russia or wherever else Caucasians may reside. But I'm not going to get upset over it as it is a fact. (Taiwanese vs Chinese, okay, I can understand, there is a history of terrible conflict, but I have dated young women from both Hong Kong and Taiwan who clearly stated they were part of the larger Chinese ethnicity that hailed from China.) The point that I think Japanese people are missing, is that non-Japanese people (or indeed I would assume foreigners around the world living in countries other than their own) would wish the people in their adopted homes to recognize the country they are originally from and to use the appropriate term instead of just 'foreigner'.
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Post by rollypop on Oct 24, 2008 14:25:43 GMT 8
Yeah, they`re Asian and that`s what they`d have to mark on forms. I mark `Caucasian` on forms, but if someone walked up to me and said, "so, you Caucasian?" I`d probably reply something like, "lol, whut?" (I would also turn my head sideways and stick my tounge out. Like this: : P And then I`d ask them how the weather was.)
Basically what I`m getting at is ethnic terms have their use, but it`s a little strange to refer to someone`s ethnic group in lieu of knowing (or seeking to learn) their country of origin.
(And one young woman I knew who identified as Taiwanese was Caucasian. Wrap your head around that one!)
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Post by junkdna on Oct 27, 2008 7:48:34 GMT 8
Oh I agree, it's not something you use everyday, and really who needs these labels?
But if you don't know, I think it's only proper.
A: Do you know Bob? B: Which Bob? There are four in the office. A: The Asian Bob. B: Ah, you mean Bob Tsing. Yeah, great guy.
This is a perfect example where it may sound 'strange' but is perfectly acceptable and I would think would be more appropriate than, "You know, the Jap guy" which I am sure most of us have heard people use (or similar).
There are exceptions to every rule. I know of a "white" guy who was born and raised in Japan, has Japanese citizenship, speaks perfect Japanese and claims Tokyo as his hometown.
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paul
E
I actually luv the "other" football...lol!
Posts: 10
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Post by paul on Feb 2, 2009 8:52:24 GMT 8
Necromancing a thread here to make a couple of comments....... First off Japanese used to use the word gaijin to describe or identify other Japanese people who were not from their village, or province. They called each other either bugaijin or gaijin. The term came to be accepted for foreigners through usage from what I understand prior to and following WWII. Oh well..... Either way you are what you are, however I think personally that is someone allows themselves to be insulted by the use of the word then that is their problem. People make their own choices I feel and they can just as easily choose not to be offended. Plus with the limited history of foreigners actually living and interacting and working here in Japan, comparitively that is, the Japanese language I think has yet to adapt to the change and lacks a proper word that is not so discriminatory. Yet that being said.....foreigners are foreigners.
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