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Post by Otaku on Nov 10, 2008 12:44:21 GMT 8
New Horizon - grade 1 (pg. 43):
This area is teaching the students how to order food in fragmented sentences, however, that is not the point of this post. Just because 'hamburger' and 'cheeseburger' is one word, doesn't mean 'chickenburger' (from the textbook) and 'teriyakiburger' (from the flashcards) are one words, also.
New Horizon - grade 2 (pg. 52-53):
1. I can never say it enough, in English her name is not "Ishii Kumi"...it's "Kumi Ishii".
2. Two new vocabulary words on this page are 'boy' and 'girl'. In my opinion, an opinion given to me by one of my JTEs who thought the same way, these words should be taught in the first grade.
3. "A park or a parking area -- that is the question." The story on this page is from an English newspaper in Japan. It was trying to spur a debate whether a parking area should be turned into a park. The problem is the above quote is a parody taken from Shakespeare. Unless the students are familiar with Shakespeare, the sentence merely becomes just another way for the students to screw up proper English sentence patterns: "A cola or juice -- do you want to drink." Shakespeare wrote that sentence in poetry, which follows a difference set of grammar rules than proper English.
I could shoot holes in these textbooks all day long...I might even think about how to write a good textbook if there was a chance it would get okayed with MEXT. But, my textbook would:
1. Not include Japanese words or culture - STRIKE 1! 2. Not include the Hiroshima story - STRIKE 2! 3. Instead of trying to teach the students about the world, my textbook would focus on teaching the English language - STRIKE 3!
I'M OUT!!
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Post by gsuiris on Nov 11, 2008 10:39:31 GMT 8
I am constantly shocked by the lack of vocabulary in the books. I remember my early foreign language books and there was always a long list of new words at the start of each chapter/unit that we had to remember. Granted our units were also more than a few short dialogues so I suppose that also says something.
The more I look at the textbooks the more I realize that they are teaching the students how to explain their culture to non-Japanese rather than how to speak or function. I think that teaching some of the culture stuff is good, but there should be less focus on it for sure. And when possible they should be about cultures that aren't Japanese.
Of course I would also make it so that in order to move on to the next grade/level the students actually had to have a passing score. I have third years who not only cannot read, but they don't know simple English such as "I have a brother" or "I read books."
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Post by Otaku on Nov 11, 2008 12:03:58 GMT 8
As Mark from over at MES-English politely schooled me on in the past, Japan teaches EFL (English as a Foreign Language), which primary purpose of study to prepare the students for tests rather than to be able to fluidly use the language.
Gsuiris, like you touched on in your post, while there might be tests in place to test students knowledge of what they learned, there is no punishment or repercussions for them flunking the tests...hence, makes person wonder as to why tests were put into place to begin with. However, I believe the lack of repercussion speaks directly to how the Japanese culture is set up.
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Post by mybelovedsushi on Nov 21, 2008 13:48:22 GMT 8
Gsuiris - HAHAHA. I have a feeling why they cant say "I read Books" hehehe Anyway - I still think this text is pretty good. **prepares self to be burned at the stake for heresy** Would YOU want to learn a new language if it was all about foreign stuff you didnt understand? First I want to learn how to explain my own feelings, then my own culture and things I know. Elementary school does a lot of " I like blue" and " I'm hungry" Then early junior high uses things the kids already know, and shows them how English is used in the context of that comfortable environment. They only have to learn "there is a SOMETHING on the SOMETHING." for that test, so why not have those something's be things they are already familiar with? If I had to learn in German "There is sauerkraut on the liederhosen" Id be stuck at "What the hell is a sauerkraut." Which would distract me from what Im supposed to learn for the test next week - THERE IS A and ON. It seems there is an equal amount of japanese and foreign culture. (Easter Island). I also think the burden is somewhat on the ALT to introduce more of their own culture as a bonus. Come on - the text is colourful, I had yellow dusty pages with fading uneven ink, easy to master - I gave up my Afrikaans studies because of the lists of hard words, it relates the the life of a normal 13 year old I had to read nonsense that wasn't relevant to my life at all, and as a bonus, the language used is natural English. (none of that "Do you like a tiger?" stuff.) I dont know why you guys get so bent out of shape about it. Although it is fun to talk about.
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Post by rollypop on Nov 25, 2008 7:46:10 GMT 8
Are you talking about NH still? Those sentences seem like part of a pretty interesting book, but I don`t remember any of those being in there.
Edit: Okay, that was your own FL textbook experience. *facepalm*
Let me get some coffee and maybe I`ll write you a coherent response...
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Post by MES Mark on Nov 29, 2008 22:44:43 GMT 8
1. I can never say it enough, in English her name is not "Ishii Kumi"...it's "Kumi Ishii". 2. Two new vocabulary words on this page are 'boy' and 'girl'. In my opinion, an opinion given to me by one of my JTEs who thought the same way, these words should be taught in the first grade. 3. "A park or a parking area -- that is the question." The story on this page is from an English newspaper in Japan. ..."A cola or juice -- do you want to drink." Shakespeare wrote that sentence in poetry, which follows a difference set of grammar rules than proper English. I might even think about how to write a good textbook if there was a chance it would get okayed with MEXT. But, my textbook would: 1. Not include Japanese words or culture - STRIKE 1! 2. Not include the Hiroshima story - STRIKE 2! 3. Instead of trying to teach the students about the world, my textbook would focus on teaching the English language - STRIKE 3! I'M OUT!! [1]Well ... Their names aren't Ayumi Hamazaki or Kumi Koda, which sound horribly wrong. Also, it is quite internationaly accepted to refer to both Korean and Japanese people last mane first. Many Japanese people would rather you call them by their last name than by their first name, especially on the first meeting. Using their first name can actually seem quite strange and out of place. So, sticking with Ishi Kumi and calling her Ishi would be best all around. [2] while we could be exhautive in our list of easy daily vocabulary students aren't familaiar with, if the word hasn't come up in the textbook prior to that point, it should be listed with the new words, right? there are plenty of 'new words' the students already know, but plenty of those 'easy' words are still new to many of the students [3] It's a famous quote and also know in Japan. They don't teach the kids to make a similiar statement. What's the problem again? On your textbook front: 1. Again, I'm going to ask where do you think Japanese people are going to be speaking English and what do you think they'll be talking about? I assume they'll be speaking to foreigners in Japan and I assume they'll be explaining to those foreigners about Japan. 2. Granted the Hiroshima story makes every American uncomfortable, but is that a reason not to include it? I've worked with a few JTE's who took the time to discuss what I and the students thought about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and I think that's why the story is in there, for discussion at the end. But again, why not include it? just because it makes you uncomfortable? 3. What do you expect them to talk about? What do you think they should learn about? I'm not trying to upset the balance here, but you put out a bunch of challenges out there and I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind them and how you expect they should be rectified?
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Post by junkdna on Dec 2, 2008 8:05:37 GMT 8
I couldn't disagree with you more. When in Rome...
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Post by Otaku on Dec 8, 2008 15:13:37 GMT 8
First of all, I just want to say that my rants about the textbooks are not meant to offend people, but rather get people thinking about what is being taught. Now, onto the discourse...
About Names: Is it Kumi Ishii or Ishii Kumi? In New Horizon's first grade teacher's edition English textbook on page 11, the textbook does talk about this issue. It says, "When Japanese people use their names in English they can put them in two ways: A.) the Japanese order of family then personal names: Ito Emi, or B.) the English order of personal then family names: Emi Ito. This book keeps the Japanese order."
I think before you can decide which 'order' to use, we need to first lay out the advantages of each side
1. For Japanese order: -- Keeps with the culture/tradition. (ie: shows that family is more important.) -- Sounds more polite.
2. For English order: -- Keeps with the culture of the language the students are studying. -- Introducing yourself with your complete name (first, last) is no less polite in English cultures. Additionally, let's say for example my last name is 'Otaku'. Going around and referring to myself as Mr. Otaku could sound condencending to the people I'm introducing myself to.
I think the textbook points out the differences in order to show the order of importance. Meaning, in Japan, the family is more important than the individual, but in English cultures, the individual is more important. If this is the case, I believe this is a false dichotomy. There are times in English cultures where names are reversed and last names are displayed first: directories, official documents, etc. I think the textbook is trying to set up a dichotomy that doesn't necessarily exist. And, when this kind of false dichotomy exists.
Are the textbooks really trying to explain WHY it has chosen to write names like this, or are they trying to give excuses as to why to keep with the Japanese order? What's the dealo? I would argue the textbooks are confusing the students rather than helping them understand this name-reversal rule. For example, on the page that it explains the name-reversal rule, the dialog on the page goes as follows:
Emi: "Good morning." Ms. Green: "Good morning." Emi: "I'm Emi." Ms. Green: "I'm Ann Green."
According to the above rules written in blue, shouldn't this dialog have Emi introducing herself as "I'm Ito Emi"?
But there could be an explanation for this...there is another cultural explanation on the same page that says, "In English, people use personal names among friends. They normally introduce themselves with something like "I'm Emi." Teachers often call students by their personal name, too." (And yes, the passage says 'name'.)
The reason this page is confusing is because Emi doesn't know Ms. Green. It's the first time they meet. They are not 'friends'; one person is a teacher and one a student. There should remain a barrier. But even still, if you turn the page, the next page has another Japanese student introducing himself by his first name, also. This entire area I can easily see as being confusing, which is evident when walking around the classroom and seeing the class split about 50/50 as to how they write their name.
I think the easiest way to handle the name issue in the textbook is to keep things simple and consistent - students are called by their first name and teachers are called Mr./Mrs. last name.
As much as I hate the phrase JunkDna said, "When in Rome..." When I introduce myself in Japanese, I not only change my name into a katakana accent, but I also reverse the order of my name, family name first. I'm under the opinion that this is not only respectful of the other person's culture, but it also shows a level of culture awareness.
About the Hiroshima story: The reason I mentioned I wouldn't include the Hiroshima story is NOT because it makes me feel uncomfortable, on the contrary, when the teachers allow me some freedom, I play a game called "Save the City!" (this game includes bombing a city). I figure if I have to talk about this story and portray Japan from a woe-is-me standpoint, I'd might as well have fun with the whole thing. The reason I wouldn't include this story is because I don't see the English educational value in it. The students have already studied this particular moment in history more thoroughly in history class than they could ever in English class. I know I'm walking on the verge of sounding uncompassionate, but are the students studying the story in English so they can tell non-Japanese people about what happened to a couple innocent children during the most gruesome and fatal war in the history books, which resulted in Japan committing a ton of heinous and gruelsome war crimes? If anything, removing the story would help students save face if/when they ever talked about this particular topic with non-Japanese people. Meaning, chances are they would get laughed at or made fun of if they tried to explain WWII from the standpoint of this story, the whole woe-are-we standpoint. I'm not trying to rain down on Japan and what happened in their past, I'm trying to give an actual protrayal of what would happen if they tried to talk about Hiroshima and WWII with a non-Japanese person with only the JHS Hiroshima story in their aresonal. It would be like showing up to a gun battle with a plastic knife...
The primary reason this story is even in the textbook is because MEXT says that any MEXT-approved English textbook has to inlcude it. In my opinion, not only do I think it doesn't serve any English educational value but I think this particular story skews the actual events of the war on whole and tries to paint Japan in a woe-are-we limelight, which is quite on the contrary. At the point that the story could be connected to emotions and serves no English educational value AND it could easily be replaced by another non-emotional or unbiased story, I see no purpose of the Hiroshima story to be included in the textbooks.
I say, save history for history class! I say the primary focus of stories in the textbooks should be on English and I don't feel that is the purpose of the Hiroshima story in this particular textbook.
What do you expect students to talk about? What do you think they should learn about?: I think a thesis could be written about these two questions. I will say, I have no qualms about sitting down with MEXT if they want to listen to what other people think about the kinds of things that should be included in their English textbooks. And, aside from a meeting with MEXT, I don't think a person needs to have solutions to every potential problem they see in order to talk about it. When the day comes that MEXT wants to listen to outside opinions about potential problems with their English textbooks, I'll put a little more thought into some solutions. Until that day comes, I'm not going to think too much about it.
However, since it's easier to see problems before finding the solutions, I do think there are some things that could easily be eliminated:
1. Stories about: landmines, starving children, whale singing, hypocritic stories about the tradegies in Wales (New Crown) when the exact same things were done to Korea by Japan, etc. 2. Non-English words: hanami, okonomiyaki, washi, moegi, asagi, chiyogami, ohajiki, heiwa, haiku, Sen to Chihiro, yukata, bon-odori, ojiichan, kakizome, kiyomizu-dera, etc. 3. Titles like "Human Tape Recorder" (Columbus 21) can be removed...it's insulting.
I think I've touched on everything...
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Post by MES Mark on Dec 8, 2008 22:02:11 GMT 8
First of all, I just want to say that my rants about the textbooks are not meant to offend people, but rather get people thinking about what is being taught. Now, onto the discourse... I'm not at all offended. I think it's OK to have problems with the materials. I have problems when books have grammatical errors or unnatural sentences that we then 'have to' teach to the students. In general though, I don't feel your 'rants' about the book are meant to be constructive. An artist shows up with a poor painting and then tries to explain to the audience he had poor brushes and old paint to work with, still won't sell his piece, nor draw much sympathy from the croud. While working with an easy to teach book is ... well ... easy, don't blame the book. I'm not blaming anyone here, either. Don't get me wrong. I just think your energy would be better focused toward discussing how to do a better job with the book you have. One example would be not to address the name issue. I taught New Horizon for 8 years and I have never had a student tell me they were confused about the name issue. Why not just teach them that either is fine and teach them how to 'properly' introduce themselves as they should when meeting someone for the first time. 'It's Bond, James Bond.' The first is what we want to be called. The second is our full name. By the time they reach that story in the second grade they are ready for that kind of explanation. If you tell them they won't be understood by inverting their name or tell them the other side will be confused, you'll just be creating more anxiety and confussion, because now, who should they believe? and what should they say? what should they write on the test? One more thing, Kumi wouldn't introduce herself as Ms. Ishii. She'd introduce herself as just Ishii and others would call her just that, 'Ishii', not Ms. Ishii. Plenty of friends and teachers throughout my life have called me by last name, no titles. It doesn't sound strange to me. I think a thesis could be written about these two questions. ... However, since it's easier to see problems before finding the solutions, I do think there are some things that could easily be eliminated: 1. Stories about: landmines, starving children, whale singing, hypocritic stories about the tradegies in Wales (New Crown) when the exact same things were done to Korea by Japan, etc. 2. Non-English words: hanami, okonomiyaki, washi, moegi, asagi, chiyogami, ohajiki, heiwa, haiku, Sen to Chihiro, yukata, bon-odori, ojiichan, kakizome, kiyomizu-dera, etc. 3. Titles like "Human Tape Recorder" (Columbus 21) can be removed...it's insulting. ... Well, if pages could be written about it, how about a couple of examples, not more criticism. Of course we could use some relevant pop culture articles but the stories would be out of date before the ink dries ... I don't see any problem with the stories. They are in the book to develope and/or solidify reading comprehension. How are the books flawed in accomplishing that goal? How they are actually used is not a matter of content. (Again, this is where you can show how great you want Englipedia to be.) I only get on your case because I think your frustrations with the textbook are misplaced and evidently unchallenged . The textbooks are for the most part fine. They serve their purpose.
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